[VWTim]

So here is what I got out of this thread

1. Monday morning quarter backing --- easy (we can always 2nd guess what should/could have done differently)
2. Being there is hard. no time to think... have to react.
3. Training is important. It exposes deficiencies in thinking, and reveals holes in training.
4. Training is hard, but necessary.
5. Simulations are as close as we can get to 'real' experience before 'real' circumstances occur.
6. We never want to be in a 'real' circumstance to use our training.

t

Points 2-6 are what I base my training and learning from. I NEVER want to be in a lethal force encounter, but because I know it's a possibility I train and prepare my mind for the worst.

Mr. 1911, no ego given in my post. I'm sorry if I came off as arrogant, that was not my intent. I'm just trying to show that basic police training is generally at a disadvantage when it comes to knock down all out survival. I am not knocking their careers or field, just that the bureaucracy has allowed their training to be deficient due to time/budget constraints. These are men and women out there risking their lives to keep order and investigate crimes, why should we not give them ALL of the tools/knowledge available to help them succeed.

With that said, I will bow out of this thread unless addressed personally to avoid anymore confusion.

[OrigamiAK]

Yes, I would have drawn. Didn't say the OP failed for not. I said "I would have drawn."
I would have.

But I believe the world needs a swift kick into a better direction. If you're gonna "beat on" some girl at WalMart, then try to "hint" at someone that "I have a weapon..", You probably deserve whatever happens.

If I go to a bar, get in someone's face, and call them a pansy. What happens?

If I go out and someone says "I have a weapon." And they're obviously willing to be violent? Draw. 'Cause you might not get another chance.



I'm not saying anyone else did anything wrong, it's just not how I would do it. But the community needs to be a little more harsh. We don't need people like that guy anyway. (But would it matter? First two rounds in my gun are less-than-lethal.)

What are the first two rounds in your gun that are less lethal?

[Thunder]

OK, I always come across wrongly misunderstood, I am trying to say, I DON"T have all the answers, I have spent most of my life training and in "real" life scenarios, real guns and bad guys, real fists and weapons, years of "force on force" scenarios too, and I still don't have all the answers or claim to, I still wonder how I will REACT to every different situation, still train constantly, because I don't have all the answers and never will. I have had the privelage of training with awesome people, some of the best in my opinion, and some of those have been at OFA, what a resource, some of the best in the country at what they do, I am humbled and fortunate to even be able to train, more less work there. I remember a few years ago when Stu Nakamura came to OFA to do a "sub gun certification", and I got to participate all day with the SWAT team in many drills and tactics, not my first time training with SWAT personel, have had the honor over the years here and there, but first time Mr. Nakamura came down that I was able to participate, very humbling and exciting, a great day. Being able to train with Rick Benson, the original/founder owner of OFA, retired with 30 yrs of law enforcement, and a decorated SWAT sniper, is always a treat, he never ceases to amaze me with expertise in every firearm capacity, especially the long gun/shotgun courses. Dan abbott, co-owner at OFA, well he is so polished at everything, I learn from him everytime he is there teaching anything, and all the other instructors there are REALLY outstanding also. 7 yrs. I have had the privelage of teaching there, I was a defensive tactics instructor for LEO and security and civilian years before that, had participated in and designed and implemented lots of force on force training, but was humbled the very first OFA class I attended, was very challenged and had to decide whether to "hide out" with what I knew or "step up" and start learning more, it was uncomfortable and actually embarrasing, the reason why most will never train seriously, but my goal when I started was to do the best I could with whatever means I could find, so I swallowed my pride again and dug in.

I am sorry mr1911 that you feel picked on, but you say things that are so silly that it draws attention, most just don't say anything about it, your arguements and statements show clearly a lack of understanding and experience and perspective, there are SO many people out there with way more experience and ability than I have, and I am constantly try to surround myself with those people, continuing to learn and train, I realize I have only a small portion of the pie after all these years of experience, and am still humbled and blessed that I can help anyone along their path of learning.

I believe we are ALL on the same path, some are at the beginning and choose to remain there, some of us are in different places along it, there is no end to learning, training, understanding. I am simply stating what some don't like to, people like you don't even know what they don't know, that is the first level on the learning matrix, everyone goes through this level, EVERYONE, but some wish to remain there and will forever, some will explore options and a self discovery of perspective will come with it, I am very forward I know, it is the way I am, some people really hate that and some appreciate it, I know it is quite annoying sometimes, my wife reminds me a lot, lol.

I ONLY use a little of my experiences from the past to try and let people know, I have paid some dues, much more than I am willing to discuss openly, and still know for a fact I do not have the all answers, I try to do this to encourage people to train and experience whats available, hoping that if those that are questioning whether it is neeeded or not will see that someone like me, who has been very blessed to have met some awesome instructors and worked very hard for years, still has many things to learn and only have survived successfully real altercations because of awesome information and training from those willing to teach me, if from that I am able to help others who have not had the opportunity yet to travel farther down the path of training/understanding, well, teaching is a gift, and a gift is only of value if given and recieved, I feel obligated to those who have earned their knowledge and given to me, to honor them by continuing giving to those that will recieve, for those that don't want it, hey its a free country. There are 5 levels in the learning matrix, everyone is at one of them all the time, and all of them in different subjects, some just like to stay in their comfort zone, others want more.

[mr1911]

VW TIM;
You missunderstood me, I haven't found you to be arrogant and have not had a problem with any of your posts, I think you, CUDA TERRY and some of the other guys understood what I meant and responded with maturaty and humility.

THUNDER;

I can't do anything about your chronic "calling me out" just because you find fault with things I say, you don't seem to be able to stand any body having an opinion of their own and not kissing your arse. Anyone with as much experience as you constantly go on about should have the maturity and humility to rise above pety issues that don't line up with your opinion. If your ego is so fragile that you bitch and moan about a insignificant peon as myself than you are the definition of an egotistical poor leader. All the good leaders I've met in my life have had four combined charactoristics that made them great.

1-knowledge

2-skill

3-patients

4-humility

From what you've displayed on this forum, you only have the fisrt two If a know nothing nobody like me can cause you such aggrivation.

It's no wonder I've stayed away from the OFA.

If you still feel the need to straighten me out please do it in private messages so we don't keep ruining peoples forum posts.

My appologies to everyone for this rediculas go around from the both of us.

[Thunder]

Interesting how you missed the point again, but I guess that is the point.

And I don't hide anything, anything I say here I will say face to face or wherever.

PMs are for those that don't want others to see, I am simply honest, I am sorry you don't like that, and particularly sorry you make up so many excuses to avoid the issues of training. Again, I guess that is the point isn't it.

[mr1911]

Interesting how you missed the point again, but I guess that is the point.

And I don't hide anything, anything I say here I will say face to face or wherever.

PMs are for those that don't want others to see, I am simply honest, I am sorry you don't like that, and particularly sorry you make up so many excuses to avoid the issues of training. Again, I guess that is the point isn't it.

Fine,......training has nothing to do with it and you know it. You're a big fish in a little pond and can't stand anyone not falling in line and kissing your butt. TRANING IS GREAT, IT'S AWSOME, I believe in it, I do what I can. You simply find any PATHETIC excuse to call me out and pick apart anything I say. I've NEVER gotten along with bullies and I never will and thats all you are on this site is a pathetic little bullie who has to get his pathetic ego stroked everytime he opens his mouth! You are so thin skinned that you take every word I say sooooo personaly you find offense in everything I say.

Grow up, get over it and get a life!

[CudaTerry]

Ok... this is getting out of hand and needs to stop!! At this point it is way too personal and against board policy. Take it to PM



t

[greenLED]

ALS Technologies Less than Lethal .45 ACP. Fancy slang for rubber bullets.

Joe, what's your rationale for carrying those instead of "real ammo" (meaning other types of defensive rounds).

[OrigamiAK]

Yes, I would have drawn. Didn't say the OP failed for not. I said "I would have drawn."
I would have.

But I believe the world needs a swift kick into a better direction. If you're gonna "beat on" some girl at WalMart, then try to "hint" at someone that "I have a weapon..", You probably deserve whatever happens.

If I go to a bar, get in someone's face, and call them a pansy. What happens?

If I go out and someone says "I have a weapon." And they're obviously willing to be violent? Draw. 'Cause you might not get another chance.



I'm not saying anyone else did anything wrong, it's just not how I would do it. But the community needs to be a little more harsh. We don't need people like that guy anyway. (But would it matter? First two rounds in my gun are less-than-lethal.)

What are the first two rounds in your gun that are less lethal?

ALS Technologies Less than Lethal .45 ACP. Fancy slang for rubber bullets.

Joe, maybe it's just me, but I see several potential problems with using rubber bullets for self-defense.

They may not effectively stop a determined attacker from harming you when you desperately need to stop them right now. This leads to the possibility that you might want to use them before deadly force is necessary and justified.

If you point a firearm at, or shoot someone, and you cannot truthfully articulate that the person posed a deadly threat to yourself or another innocent person at the time you pointed or shot, I think you are likely to get charged with a crime, rubber bullets or not. Firearms are inherently and automatically deadly weapons under the law. I would be very disinclined to try to make a real firearm into a less-lethal weapon. This is the same legal problem that "biomechanical cutting" has. (Basically that's the idea that a knife is capable of stopping someone by causing less-lethal damage to limbs, but still disabling the attacker. If you use a knife or a gun, it counts as deadly force under the law. If you say "I was specifically trying not to kill him", the inevitable response is "then why use a knife/gun?")

Less-lethal is called less-lethal for a reason: it is not non-lethal. It is possible that the rubber projectile could cause death or serious physical injury. If you shoot someone with a firearm, but were specifically trying to avoid killing them, and they die, you are going to have serious legal trouble (probably manslaughter.) Again this is the same legal problem that "shooting to wound" entails - someone might die anyway when their death is not justified.

I think there are some very serious tactical and legal pitfalls associated with trying to use a firearm outside of it proper context: to defend innocent life against the immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm. If you must shoot, you must shoot to stop the threat. No more, no less, and certainly not to kill or wound, but to cause the unlawful deadly attack to cease as quickly as possible. To do otherwise indicates that perhaps your life wasn't actually in that much danger, rendering the use of deadly weapons unlawful. If it's not the proper time to use a gun loaded with real ammunition, then it's not time to use any gun at all.

[OrigamiAK]

That they can't call it "Attempted Murder" with non-lethal bullets.

No matter how you shoot someone, justified or not, you're going to jail. And Discharging a firearm within' city limits is much easier than a muder charge.

If two painful whacks aren't enough of a message, then you put them down.
"Judge, I tried to end the confrontation with non-lethal force."

Two of those rounds, then the rest JHP's.

Rubber bullets are not non-lethal. They are less-lethal. They are less-lethal because they are still capable of causing death or serious physical injury, despite their ostensible purpose being to avoid killing. If you kill someone when attempting to subdue them, generally you are going to be in a heap of legal trouble (worse than the legal trouble inherent to using a firearm in self-defense.) And they may not be very effective when you desperately need them to be. Needing to get past the two rubber bullets ahead of your real bullets, to stop a deadly attack already underway may not jive with the amount of time you have available to save your life.

[Thunder]

Interesting how you missed the point again, but I guess that is the point.

And I don't hide anything, anything I say here I will say face to face or wherever.

PMs are for those that don't want others to see, I am simply honest, I am sorry you don't like that, and particularly sorry you make up so many excuses to avoid the issues of training. Again, I guess that is the point isn't it.

Fine,......training has nothing to do with it and you know it. You're a big fish in a little pond and can't stand anyone not falling in line and kissing your butt. TRANING IS GREAT, IT'S AWSOME, I believe in it, I do what I can. You simply find any PATHETIC excuse to call me out and pick apart anything I say. I've NEVER gotten along with bullies and I never will and thats all you are on this site is a pathetic little bullie who has to get his pathetic ego stroked everytime he opens his mouth! You are so thin skinned that you take every word I say sooooo personaly you find offense in everything I say.

Grow up, get over it and get a life!

Wow, lol, ok terry, no more from me, I see that my point was clearly made. If half as much energy/time was put into training/learning as is spent on justifying not training/learning, I would want to come learn from 1911.

I will not make any more comments to mr1911, anywhere, anytime, trash as you will, my skin is just fine.

[Dan Abbott]

Just got an email about this thread from members who are concerned...so it is time to shut it down. It is okay to disagree and it is okay to vehemently disagree with one another. It is okay to have conflicting ideals, tactics, concepts, and plans. It is okay to disagree about one anothers techniques, situations, and schools of thought.

But what is not okay is stating things that are either illegal or imply they are illegal and manufacturing intent. Also it is unacceptable to make personal attacks on anyone. So...I'm shutting it down and am consulting with the Admin and Mods on other possible actions.

Disagree and argue all you want...but when it crosses over into personal and/or publically manufacturing intent it gone too far.

Forum Guidelines:

Some Sensible Guiding Principles for Forum Conduct


When responding to, or composing a post, please focus on the issue or subject of the thread and NOT the person. Maintain the self-respect of each member. Build constructive and honorable relationships. Ask yourself, “Would I say or make this same comment (post) to this member in person…?!” Contribute posts and treat others in an honorable manner.

Also any threads that are illegal, that suggest illegal behavior, or that manufacture intent to harm someone are unacceptable and will be deleted and the member(s) could be banned. We feel that the culture of this forum should avoid radicalism and be reserved politically and philosophically. As a language guideline, if you can post a thread you’re comfortable in sharing with a Priest, Rabbi, Pastor, your sweet little church-going grandma, then that is a good litmus test for the language.

[Thunder]

Something to ponder, some law enforcement agencies I am familiar with, have gone to a policy of, "less than lethal" only in a shotgun, carbines are loaded normally. Training of course ensues, but so many "problems" had arisen from both sides of less-lethal/lethal, it became easier, more tactically sound and less liability, to assign a "weapon" to less than lethal, rather than just some rounds, which could be miscounted, misused, and become the causation of many problems and stress that arise under survival/combat conditions.

Sometimes we can learn from others experiences, as they are sorted out. And these are men and women with higher than most civilian training requirements, and have a "duty to act" in the presence of illegal behavior, where, of course, civilians do not. Also civilians must justify use of any type of physical force, based on the circumstances and info. at the time and pertaining directly to the need to defend oneself, because they don't have to remain, as police do, less-lethal ammo in a deadly weapon, is pretty tough to argue.

Any use of Deadly force must be justified through very specific criteria, based on the circumstances at the time, information available at the time, and a reasonable belief that their own life or the life of another is in imminent danger.

If AOJ does NOT exist at the time of presenting a deadly weapon/force response, it does not matter what type of "bullets" were loaded in the weapon, if it DOES exist, not being able to stop the threat as quickly as possible, may cost someones life.

With the inability for handguns to stop most "motivated" individuals anyway, with any caliber or type of ammo, very quickly, or as statistics show, quite possibly at all, the question arises, is this an advantage? is this a liability? is this consistent with my personal goals? (most train to simply go home safely to our families or protect them, if God forbid, something bad happens.)

This was not presented as any type of arguement, simply information to consider. What anyone actually does is still a personal choice, God bless america.

[SiG Lady]

Good Lord, people...! The one day (out of hundreds) that I decide NOT to peek in on OCC (dammit, I'm busy doing my taxes!!!), the place explodes.

Arguing in circles, name-calling and insults are simply not acceptable.
Everybody just go home, take a deep breath, have a beer and calm down.
That's an order.

It's OK to debate and even mildly "argue" here, but if it goes beyond that--or appears to be a "no end in sight" slug-fest--expect to see the OFA street-sweeping machine bearing down on you and your remarks.

Come back LATER (give it at least a 3-day vacation) and re-read this thread and see where you stand on it.
See where it went wrong.
See if your opinion has changed.

[Chief Joseph]

mr1911, on 22 January 2009 - 08:26 AM, said:

Tim;

I didn't post here to get into a pissing contest, so I'm sorry if I came off that way,.......

I was only reffering to the FREQUENCY and intensity of the SWAT training regiment, nothing more,.......

I also love how often OFA's reffer the the "adjudicator"..........

The fact is having had LEO's and Military in my family I cannot tell you how many times I have heard of a proffesional reacting to a situation and not performing to the perfect law of his/her trianing. The "adjudicator" I'm sure is great, but if you believe for one second that that GUARANTIES your PERFECT reaction to an unpredictable life threataning situation where the variables are inumerable and the outcome is literaly life and death you are mistaken.

I only posted here because I think it is so typical and funny how certian people like to second guess someone's reaction to a situation.

B.D. reacted with restriant, NOT pulling his weapon when the other made a "weapon move" gesture, only going on guard after the threatening reaction, I see nothing wrong with his performance.

AMEN !!!

[Thunder]

This was a year ago that 1911 made those comments, doubt if he still feels this way, having a facility for civilians/citizens to go to and recieve specialized, exclusive training like all law enforcement/swat/srt/military security forces/special forces and on and on do,
for most is a simple response,

"WOW. there are places with experienced instructors who will help us get this level of training?" "How cool and valuable is that"