[big daddy]

I was in the local Walmart doing a return for my wife & "patiently" standing in line at the customer service desk. A younger guy about 20 came in and was hitting on a clerk. When she shot him down he angrily turned to leave at the entrance door.

[/left]At the entrance door sits a cute little mentally handicapped high school-aged girl who is always very sweet when my wife and I enter the store. Now it's her job to say hello to you upon entering the store but, it's also her job to ask you politely to use the exit instead of leaving from the entrance for security reasons. When she saw this little punk storming over in her direction she said," Sir, will you please use the exit?"

Instead of using the exit and avoiding any type of conflict, he started in on her. He called her a few names that I won't repeat but, the last straw for me was when she started crying he spit in her face.

That did it for me.

I said, " hey pal, why don't you just use the exit door like the rest of us!" This apparently further enraged him. He said," F#$% YOU dude" started to lift his shirt a reach for something.

Before he could I instantly reached behind my back to put my hand on my XD9 and said "Please don't! That would be a really bad idea!" I figured out that he was bluffing and just trying to scare me. He unfortunately ( or fortunately as the case turned out) found out that I wasn't. He automatically turn pale as a ghost and ran for the exit. It actually scared me, too! I thought to myself, oh man, I almost had to hurt this kid!

The manager of the store came over to me after this all happened and asked me if I was a LEO. I said,"No mam, I'm just another law abiding citizen protecting myself." She thanked me again and again and offered me a $50 store gift card for in her words "taking out the trash".

These types of incidents are sometimes unavoidable. Lucky for me Iwas armed and he wasn't.[left]

[SiG Lady]

What a great story! Good job!

Unfortunately, a lot of 'punks' are all bluff and nothing but fluff (of course there are some who AREN'T). There are moments when it pays to find out, even if it's risky. He was clearly outa his mind and had no business being in that place doing what he was doing!

[mhpoole]

Just wondering what you would have done if he would have pulled out an airsoft gun without the orange cap on the barrel? If you reached for your gun that quickly and if you saw him grabbing something gun shaped or dark in color. Did you have tunnel vision? What was the surrounding area like, how many people around the loud mouth? What was directly behind him?

[bmt]

Instead of using the exit and avoiding any type of conflict, he started in on her. He called her a few names that I won't repeat but, the last straw for me was when she started crying he spit in her face.

That did it for me.

Good For You.

True, it is a Spooky lesson. We can all learn from it.

Maybe next time, you simply escort the Girl away and protect her.

Avoidance is the rule--and it is a good rule. But that DOES NOT me you leave your dignity and your manhood behind.

God Bless you for defending the weak.

BMT

[joe stone]

Instead of using the exit and avoiding any type of conflict, he started in on her. He called her a few names that I won't repeat but, the last straw for me was when she started crying he spit in her face.

That did it for me.

Good For You.

True, it is a Spooky lesson. We can all learn from it.

Maybe next time, you simply escort the Girl away and protect her.

Avoidance is the rule--and it is a good rule. But that DOES NOT me you leave your dignity and your manhood behind.

God Bless you for defending the weak.

BMT

Did you actually show him your weapon or just have your hand on it?
And did he or other people see your weapon?

What a scary situation.
I think you did a great job.

Thank you for helping people.

Joe

[big daddy]

Instead of using the exit and avoiding any type of conflict, he started in on her. He called her a few names that I won't repeat but, the last straw for me was when she started crying he spit in her face.

That did it for me.

Good For You.

True, it is a Spooky lesson. We can all learn from it.

Maybe next time, you simply escort the Girl away and protect her.

Avoidance is the rule--and it is a good rule. But that DOES NOT me you leave your dignity and your manhood behind.

God Bless you for defending the weak.

BMT

Did you actually show him your weapon or just have your hand on it?
And did he or other people see your weapon?

What a scary situation.
I think you did a great job.

Thank you for helping people.

Joe

I did not show my firearm. I just wanted to be ready.

[big daddy]

Just wondering what you would have done if he would have pulled out an airsoft gun without the orange cap on the barrel? If you reached for your gun that quickly and if you saw him grabbing something gun shaped or dark in color. Did you have tunnel vision? What was the surrounding area like, how many people around the loud mouth? What was directly behind him?

I understand your concern but, when someone acts like they are going to draw on me, I want to be prepared. I always look at my surroundings, wherever I go. There was a wall directly behind him, not people. I would not have gone for my gun if I hadn't felt threatened. Am I defending myself here?

[big daddy]

Instead of using the exit and avoiding any type of conflict, he started in on her. He called her a few names that I won't repeat but, the last straw for me was when she started crying he spit in her face.

That did it for me.

Good For You.

True, it is a Spooky lesson. We can all learn from it.

Maybe next time, you simply escort the Girl away and protect her.

Avoidance is the rule--and it is a good rule. But that DOES NOT me you leave your dignity and your manhood behind.

God Bless you for defending the weak.

BMT

Did you actually show him your weapon or just have your hand on it?
And did he or other people see your weapon?

What a scary situation.
I think you did a great job.

Thank you for helping people.

Joe

I did not pull my gun. I saw a threat, not a weapon.

[mhpoole]

Just wondering what you would have done if he would have pulled out an airsoft gun without the orange cap on the barrel? If you reached for your gun that quickly and if you saw him grabbing something gun shaped or dark in color. Did you have tunnel vision? What was the surrounding area like, how many people around the loud mouth? What was directly behind him?

I understand your concern but, when someone acts like they are going to draw on me, I want to be prepared. I always look at my surroundings, wherever I go. There was a wall directly behind him, not people. I would not have gone for my gun if I hadn't felt threatened. Am I defending myself here?

Not at all, just wondering what your other observations were at a time when your senses were on high alert.

[perdurabo]

There was a wall directly behind him, not people. I would not have gone for my gun if I hadn't felt threatened. Am I defending myself here?

Yes, but what was behind you?

I think that in the same situation I would've tried to establish rapport with the scumbag to de-escalate the situation and get him to leave the area.

My concern with use of the weapon at this point is 1) I'd be taking a life, and 2) "Did I needlessly escalate the situation, subjecting me to legal/criminal/civil liabilities?". Whether that answer is yes or no, I truly do not know, especially with the panicked gun fear in this area.

Thanks for posting this. It's a good post-mortem analysis we can all learn from, and I'm grateful for these real world scenario write-ups. We don't exactly have the time to ponder all that I just did on the spot, as it happens.

[Joe]

Censored, I guess.

[Mikethecowboy]

First off i have to say that was a very brave, and nice thing to do. its sad that there are people that would do that to anyone in this world. This brings to mind a question that has troubled my mind for some time. what would happen if you drew your weapon and the BG walks off while everyone saw you "pull a gun on someone"

[Joe]

Censored, I guess.

[Thunder]

Not going to make any friends here, but I would have drawn my gun.

This does NOT mean I would have fired it!

With gun drawn, you are obviously a step above him. If he grabs a weapon at this point, you fire.

I don't think it would have gone very well if you waited for him to draw HIS weapon, then you draw yours. Assuming he could shoot what he was aiming at, you probably wouldn't be posting yet.

No, I do not encourage drawing your weapon as a threat de-escalator. Don't expect showing your gun to be the end.
But if he's telling you "I have a weapon!". Draw faster. End of story.


Simple reality; The "correct" thing to do is not brandish your weapon, obviously. But it's not exactly the most effective thing.

There is not a "brandishing" in oregon law, its called "menacing" ORS 163.190, and also there was no clear justification for drawing, AOJ had not been established yet. Which raises the question of menacing, as well as other issues, as well as many tactical problems, but those things are best sorted out in the Adjudicator, not on here.

[mr1911]

I love it when all the second guessers chime in, unless you trian like the LAPD SWAT, you never truely know what you would do until it happens and then even the pros have suprising reactions at times.
I say good job "B.D.", you showed guarded restraint, preparing yourself without actualy pulling your weapon.

I like that store manager, some would have preffered that YOU leave instead of the scumbag. I hope they have a good description of him on the security cams.

I feel sorry for that poor young lady, why is it the bullies of the world ALLWAYS pick on the innocent and deffensless?
I'm sure you showed much more restriant than a lot of us would have even if we weren't armed, in fact I would have been tempted to have showed him a thing or FIVE if I had not been carrying. I actualy tend to show much more physical restriant while carrying than when not, just because of the implications of having a gun on my person.

[VWTim]

I love it when all the second guessers chime in, unless you trian like the LAPD SWAT, you never truely know what you would do until it happens and then even the pros have suprising reactions at times.

Train like LAPD SWAT? Why? so we can do dynamic entries safely? So we can clear rooms from stack positions? SWAT and personal defense tactics vary GREATLY. They rely on advanced firepower, group backup, and intimidation from being SWAT and what that represents.

Personally we are only responsible for ourselves and our loved ones. If you choose to extend your circle of protection out to the general public you have to be VERY careful, things are NOT always as they seem.

Mr 1911, 1 trip thru the Adjudicator at OFA or a similar force on force scenario training will open your eyes on how you react to crisis and other lethal force confrontations.

[OrigamiAK]

I love it when all the second guessers chime in, unless you trian like the LAPD SWAT, you never truely know what you would do until it happens and then even the pros have suprising reactions at times.
I say good job "B.D.", you showed guarded restraint, preparing yourself without actualy pulling your weapon.

I like that store manager, some would have preffered that YOU leave instead of the scumbag. I hope they have a good description of him on the security cams.

I feel sorry for that poor young lady, why is it the bullies of the world ALLWAYS pick on the innocent and deffensless?
I'm sure you showed much more restriant than a lot of us would have even if we weren't armed, in fact I would have been tempted to have showed him a thing or FIVE if I had not been carrying. I actualy tend to show much more physical restriant while carrying than when not, just because of the implications of having a gun on my person.

You're right that training is no guarantee. But you're still much better off with it, than without it. All the human stress responses can still apply, and usually do, to one degree or another, but people who are well-trained tend to suffer them less intensely than those who are marginally trained or untrained.

I don't rightly know exactly how LAPD SWAT trains, so I can't speak to that comment beyond saying that there is a lot of commonality between LE and Private Citizen "modern defensive handgun skills and doctrine", but the priorities governing its application are different. Basically LE has a duty to confront and apprehend suspects and restore order and often are proactive whereas Private Citizens generally have a priority of avoidance and are more reactive and have no official duty to intervene at all.

You may have been asking a rhetorical question, but, bullies pick on the weak because they primarily practice victimization, not skilled fighting. A good candidate for victimization is weak, innocent, and defenseless. They tend to avoid attempting to victimize people who appear to be alert, self-confident, strong, and tenacious.

[mr1911]

Tim;

I didn't post here to get into a pissing contest, so I'm sorry if I came off that way,.......

I was only reffering to the FREQUENCY and intensity of the SWAT training regiment, nothing more,.......

I also love how often OFA's reffer the the "adjudicator"..........

The fact is having had LEO's and Military in my family I cannot tell you how many times I have heard of a proffesional reacting to a situation and not performing to the perfect law of his/her trianing. The "adjudicator" I'm sure is great, but if you believe for one second that that GUARANTIES your PERFECT reaction to an unpredictable life threataning situation where the variables are inumerable and the outcome is literaly life and death you are mistaken.

I only posted here because I think it is so typical and funny how certian people like to second guess someone's reaction to a situation.

B.D. reacted with restriant, NOT pulling his weapon when the other made a "weapon move" gesture, only going on guard after the threatening reaction, I see nothing wrong with his performance.

[OrigamiAK]

I cross-posted with you there mr1911. Thanks for the clarification of what you meant about LAPD SWAT. I think I better understand what you meant by that now.

[VWTim]

Tim;

I didn't post here to get into a pissing contest, so I'm sorry if I came off that way,.......

I was only reffering to the FREQUENCY and intensity of the SWAT training regiment, nothing more,.......

I also love how often OFA's reffer the the "adjudicator"..........

The fact is having had LEO's and Military in my family I cannot tell you how many times I have heard of a proffesional reacting to a situation and not performing to the perfect law of his/her trianing. The "adjudicator" I'm sure is great, but if you believe for one second that that GUARANTIES your PERFECT reaction to an unpredictable life threataning situation where the variables are inumerable and the outcome is literaly life and death you are mistaken.

I only posted here because I think it is so typical and funny how certian people like to second guess someone's reaction to a situation.

B.D. reacted with restriant, NOT pulling his weapon when the other made a "weapon move" gesture, only going on guard after the threatening reaction, I see nothing wrong with his performance.

I agree with you and no disrespect intended.

I was just trying to sum up the differences in training "goals" of SWAT/LEO and private citizens. I also come from a family background in law enforcement including SWAT Training. No amount of training can prepare you for everything. But practiced "mock" situations that get you out of your comfort zone and require active thinking under duress/stress can make a huge difference on how people react when "loaded" in a real situation. Some people do as they train, others do something different, while others are overwhelmed and shut down. Learning how your mind reacts to situations can be an eye opener and allow you to focus on the mindset needed.
Sorry for the thread drift, as usual To the OP, you survived that situation, in that you were able to go home and be with your loved ones. No second guessing here.

[Thunder]

Tim;

I didn't post here to get into a pissing contest, so I'm sorry if I came off that way,.......

I was only reffering to the FREQUENCY and intensity of the SWAT training regiment, nothing more,.......

I also love how often OFA's reffer the the "adjudicator"..........

The fact is having had LEO's and Military in my family I cannot tell you how many times I have heard of a proffesional reacting to a situation and not performing to the perfect law of his/her trianing. The "adjudicator" I'm sure is great, but if you believe for one second that that GUARANTIES your PERFECT reaction to an unpredictable life threataning situation where the variables are inumerable and the outcome is literaly life and death you are mistaken.

I only posted here because I think it is so typical and funny how certian people like to second guess someone's reaction to a situation.

B.D. reacted with restriant, NOT pulling his weapon when the other made a "weapon move" gesture, only going on guard after the threatening reaction, I see nothing wrong with his performance.

LOL, like I mentioned on the other thread, people that have not done the training, always believe that they are different, that is what is funny. Having any in the family or friends that have trained extensively, usually makes it worse, because then there is even a higher tendancy to think something is understood, when really it is more misunderstood.

The original story was good, he showed restraint and handled it OK, later there was a comment about "I woulda drawn" and that would have not been appropriate at the moment.

There is no reason to argue mr1911, you seem to want to for some reason, but you have no basis for your comments, you have admitted over and over, except that your family has had LEO training, an uncle I think you said, and some basic training yourself, I have trained civilian, security and law enforcement officers for over 20 yrs. have been through countless Adjudicator and similar scenario based trainings myself, have written, organized and taught hundreds of these programs, de-briefed hundreds of students afterwards, and worked in the field myself. No I don't know it all, have made lots of mistakes, seen good people with good training do "imperfect" things under bizarre conditions, BUT, everytime those that are trained perform better, at a higher level, based on their own experiences and abilities.

Students I have watched from the first time in the Adjudicator until the 10th or more time, react conmpletely different, solving very hard scenarios with ease, while others with only a couple have great difficulty with simple (if there are any simple) confrontations.

Bottom line, those that have done it know, those that have not done it do not know, and only confirm their own lack of understanding, by making statements that are "uninformed"

We try to ignore them mostly, because those that do it, know you can't explain something to someone that has no basis for understanding what they are arguing, but some of the things you say, could effect people out there, that want to know the truth and still have an open mind to seek the truth.

[mr1911]

Tim;

I didn't post here to get into a pissing contest, so I'm sorry if I came off that way,.......

I was only reffering to the FREQUENCY and intensity of the SWAT training regiment, nothing more,.......

I also love how often OFA's reffer the the "adjudicator"..........

The fact is having had LEO's and Military in my family I cannot tell you how many times I have heard of a proffesional reacting to a situation and not performing to the perfect law of his/her trianing. The "adjudicator" I'm sure is great, but if you believe for one second that that GUARANTIES your PERFECT reaction to an unpredictable life threataning situation where the variables are inumerable and the outcome is literaly life and death you are mistaken.

I only posted here because I think it is so typical and funny how certian people like to second guess someone's reaction to a situation.

B.D. reacted with restriant, NOT pulling his weapon when the other made a "weapon move" gesture, only going on guard after the threatening reaction, I see nothing wrong with his performance.

LOL, like I mentioned on the other thread, people that have not done the training, always believe that they are different, that is what is funny. Having any in the family or friends that have trained extensively, usually makes it worse, because then there is even a higher tendancy to think something is understood, when really it is more misunderstood.

The original story was good, he showed restraint and handled it OK, later there was a comment about "I woulda drawn" and that would have not been appropriate at the moment.

There is no reason to argue mr1911, you seem to want to for some reason, but you have no basis for your comments, you have admitted over and over, except that your family has had LEO training, an uncle I think you said, and some basic training yourself, I have trained civilian, security and law enforcement officers for over 20 yrs. have been through countless Adjudicator and similar scenario based trainings myself, have written, organized and taught hundreds of these programs, de-briefed hundreds of students afterwards, and worked in the field myself. No I don't know it all, have made lots of mistakes, seen good people with good training do "imperfect" things under bizarre conditions, BUT, everytime those that are trained perform better, at a higher level, based on their own experiences and abilities.

Students I have watched from the first time in the Adjudicator until the 10th or more time, react conmpletely different, solving very hard scenarios with ease, while others with only a couple have great difficulty with simple (if there are any simple) confrontations.

Bottom line, those that have done it know, those that have not done it do not know, and only confirm their own lack of understanding, by making statements that are "uninformed"

We try to ignore them mostly, because those that do it, know you can't explain something to someone that has no basis for understanding what they are arguing, but some of the things you say, could effect people out there, that want to know the truth and still have an open mind to seek the truth.

Thunder;

Like I said, I DIDN'T want to get into a pissing contest, My step dad was a career L.E.O., not my uncle, I'm NOT claiming any superior ability or knowledge, just that it is warrantless and ARROGANT to second guess someone's actions when THEY, NOT YOU were in the "crucible" so to speek, we all know of your extensive, superior skills and abillity THUNDER, you make that quite well understood constantly.

I don't question your superiority over us mere mortals or suggest I have no need of your wisdom, but someone making up their own controlled scenerious doesn't equal actual combat experience, it can only prepare you for what is to come. I don't dismiss the importance of trianing, only that ACTUAL experience beats contrived scenerios. I would put any 1 year of an L.E.O.'s or soldier's actual real life and death combat experience against a decade of made up role playing.

[VWTim]

I would put any 1 year of an L.E.O.'s or soldier's actual real life and death combat experience against a decade of made up role playing.

I hear a match in the works....

You find the 1 year veteran Police Officer. We have him/her and Thunder with Airsofts in their typical daily clothing go at it in a force on force scenario. I'm not knocking Law Enforcement Officers, but their training in hand on hand and other "poo hits the whirly thing" things is definitely lacking due to gov't funding, PC, and other reasons.

[mr1911]

I am not reffering to a 1 year grad of the police academy's training, I was reffering to an actual veteran's year's worth of real life and death combat on the steets.

Besides it's not a diffacult bet to imagine who would win in a scenerio you've designed and practiced constantly vs. a green oponent.

I appologize for hijacking this thread with THUNDER again, I am seriously not trying to despute THUNDER'S superiority here, but as usual thats the way it has ben taken. I think some out there have understood my point was just saying B.D. did an o.k. job and it's funny when others come in behind and aspouse what they would have done themselves when only GOD knows what you'll really do if confronted with a REAL life and death situation.

Thats all, lets let the egos take a break.

[CudaTerry]

I would put any 1 year of an L.E.O.'s or soldier's actual real life and death combat experience against a decade of made up role playing.

I hear a match in the works....

You find the 1 year veteran Police Officer. We have him/her and Thunder with Airsofts in their typical daily clothing go at it in a force on force scenario. I'm not knocking Law Enforcement Officers, but their training in hand on hand and other "poo hits the whirly thing" things is definitely lacking due to gov't funding, PC, and other reasons.

So here is what I got out of this thread

1. Monday morning quarter backing --- easy (we can always 2nd guess what should/could have done differently)
2. Being there is hard. no time to think... have to react.
3. Training is important. It exposes deficiencies in thinking, and reveals holes in training.
4. Training is hard, but necessary.
5. Simulations are as close as we can get to 'real' experience before 'real' circumstances occur.
6. We never want to be in a 'real' circumstance to use our training.

t